CONVERSATIONS WITH MAWERE

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- Mutumwa Mawere -

FOSMM Whatsapp Thread as of 30 October 2016 - Minerals

Posted on November 01st 2016

1. [12:05 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: 1. South Korea became a nation in 1948.
2. [12:06 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: 2. South Korea is a proof that it's not the natural resources that makes an economy succeed. It's what you do with the natural resources even if it means you get them somewhere.
Check also Japan. South Korea's Transition from Recipient to DAC Donor: Assessing Korea's Development Cooperation PolicySince the 1960s, South Korea has transformed from a recipient country of official development assistance to a significant donor. In 2010, South Korea became a Development Assistance Committee (DAC) member. This paper aims to analyse Korean development cooperation policies and place them in comparison with other donors. The analysis begins with an examination of the wider context of evolving development cooperation that frames the Korean policies. In the second section, the paper analyses Korean development cooperation and its primary objectives. This is followed by a discussion of various different approaches toward development cooperation, specifically focussing on aid conditionality (or lack thereof), the use of grants versus loans and the use of multilateral channels in comparison with bilateral channels. The paper goes on to highlight the destinations of Korean aid in terms of both geography and economic sectors. The last section reflects on the paper's overall findings, with specific reference to the place of Korea in the wider donor landscape, arguing that Korea constitutes a traditional DAC donor.poldev.revues.org
3. [12:09 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: 3. South Korea proves that with good governance, international aid can be converted into good use.
"South Korea's economic growth and rise from one of the poorest countries in the world to one of the fifteen largest economies is the direct result of the international development assistance it received and the effective use of aid to achieve its national development objectives." - CFR.
"According to Korean government estimates, the country received USD 12.7 billion between 1945 and the late 1990s, ‘which helped spur economic development and decrease poverty' (OECD, 2008: 9). As illustrated by Figure 1, this aid was primarily provided by the United States, Japan and the European DAC members.Japanese loans issued in 1981 constituted the last significant aid assistance Korea received." - https://poldev.revues.org/1535
"South Korea, however, benefited from big injections of foreign aid, first from the US, then Japan. A briefing paper from KoFID, a South Korean network of civil society organisations, and ReDI, a South Korean thinktank, points out that the US offered about $60bn in grants and loans to South Korea between 1946 and 1978. In the same period, the total amount of aid provided by the US to the entire African continent was $68.9bn. Korea - considered by the US an important ally during the cold war - indisputedly used the aid well." - www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/nov/28/south-korea-development-model
4. [12:09 AM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: How about the fallacy contents
5. [12:11 AM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Are the mentioned figures at current rates?? Of the$
6. [12:43 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: I read his argument to say that within the context of these discussions let's not lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day, mineral resources belong to everyone, and the state has an obligation to ensure that private interests don't the trump public interest in preserving the resources for the people. That the state in our case is corrupt doesn't change this rider.
7. [12:44 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: By virtue of them belonging to a particular country minerals are therefore part of the national treasure,just as rivers cannot be owned by individuals,which is why the land belongs to the state,even if a company can be given mining rights,they are not entitled to retain the full proceeds,but have an obligation to share the loot 38514a0b-f985-46a6-9426-9cbd5df14930
8. [12:51 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Tino, Thinga and TM: thanx for driving the point home
9. [1:06 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 883 1939: πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»
10. [3:29 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
11. [5:33 AM, 10/30/2016] Azon Streita: Japan ....super example everπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏπŸ‘πŸΏ
12. [5:43 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: You are so pleased for being cheered for not having been answering questions just like him who can't substantiate claims and sustain arguments?
13. [5:48 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro:
i. What does "mineral resources belong to everyone" really mean?
ii. Let's distinguish public and private property.
iii. Do you have respect for private property?
iv. Again what do you mean by "resources of the people"?
v. Will ignore these questions like you did those I posed in the morning yesterday.
14. [5:48 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Morning All
15. [5:49 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: What is a "national treasure"?
State how it is accounted for?
16. [5:51 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: ***
i. What does "mineral resources belong to everyone" really mean?
ii. Let's distinguish public and private property.
iii. Do you have respect for private property?
iv. Again what do you mean by "resources of the people"?
Will you ignore these questions like you did those I posed in the morning yesterday?
17. [5:54 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The idea that land belongs to the state cannot be logically consistent and logical.
The state is a construct of man where land is real. Which came into existence first? What can conceivably be the relationship, if any, between the state and land? Can land exist independent of land?
18. [5:54 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Nowhere in the constitution would anyone find a term "natural treasure."
Nowhere in the constitution would anyone find a clause that say natural resources belong to the people or that mineral/mining rights are outside property rights.
19. [5:55 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: *national treasure
20. [5:57 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: There is nothing that exists as a natural resource or human-made thing outside property rights, whether they are public or private.
21. [5:58 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: ***There is nothing that exists as a natural or human-made thing outside property rights, whether they are public or private.
22. [5:58 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Resources were or must have been created separately and independently of man. This must be self evident. Resources are an endowment of forces outside the creativity and ingenuity of man.
It would appear that this imported dispute has an inherent mischief in it.
23. [6:00 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: This a central existential point. You may be arguing with intellectual ghosts on a point that can be invoked to create the supremacy of an artificial construction.
24. [6:01 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I shared the copy of the constitution and I expected discussants like @447481818249 whom I highly regard as an erudite legal mind to be alert to the terms they use if they can find their location in the constitution.
25. [6:01 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Exactly
26. [6:02 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Arguments that are not guided by facts and logic can be debilitating and meant to divert and exhaust.
27. [6:08 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Although @447481818249 recently acquired his law doctorate or will soon acquire it, I'm now convinced he is not Alex Magaisa or Adv Fadzayi Mahere who would not hesitate to factually substantiate and locate their arguments in relevant sections of the constitution.
Alex and Fadzayi have been my point of reference in how to make very simplified and soundly thought out legal arguments to the extent that there is a world of difference when a politician or non-legal mind argues.
I fully agree that "arguments that are not guided by facts and logic can be debilitating and meant to divert and exhaust." - MDM.
28. [6:17 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The need for a master class as a worthy intervention aimed at optimising knowledge supply chain cannot be overstated.
Unlike hard wealth, soft wealth is has no physical address and therefore it can be taxing to establish it existence outside engaging it in sometimes tortuous and often unnecessary processes.
The intellectual apartheid is obvious but the need to democratize forward leaning ideas seems to be a core objective that can easily be hijacked in the name of intellectual discourses.
29. [6:39 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Missed the part where l was trying to be Alex Magaisa of Fadzayi Mahere. This attempt at baiting will also fail
30. [6:40 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I don't understand this whole thing about Chiyadzwa diamonds looting.
31. In what form was looting? Was it:
i. Undeclared or falsely sales that prejudiced the state of royalties.
ii. Loss of income tax by government due to tax evasion.
iii. Non-declaration of dividends for shareholders when the companies has the capacity
32. [6:42 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: You are you. And comparison is unfortunate for it adds nothing to the questions that call for originality and uniqueness of thought. If what comes is nonsensical it should stand on its own and comparing or indexing intellectual thoughts can lead us to a destination that is not desirable.
33. [6:43 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I'm not baiting you to be more than a legal mind who is factual and substantiate arguments by locating them in relevant sections of the constitution and using terms that pass the test of constitutional scrutiny.
Not everyone here is a legal mind and it would be useful that people get to tap from your legal reasoning.
34. [6:48 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I am not sure whether common sense, logic and reason and the idea of constitutionalism informed the allegation of $15 billion as an operative and appropriate number to drive a tired argument that Zimbos after 36 years of independence are poor were it not for the theft.
The geography if this toxic argument is regrettably not just ZANU-PF actors but universal. The market for foolish arguments is bigger than one would want to see in circumstances where the solutions to the triple challenges are self-evident.
35. [6:50 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Good luck with that
36. [6:52 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I am trying to understand your precise argument? What is your position?
37. [7:12 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I'm sure my expectation is misplaced or misdirected and we will continue to experience your non-legal reasoning that appeals to Jones Musara's sentimentality.
MDM has asked what arguments you hold on the respective matter and it's good luck to him if you can favour him with a response.
Have a good day.
38. [7:17 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Any battle of ideas should always be limited to their clash. This ought to be the guiding principle. Legal questions call for legal answers. Equally commercial questions cannot be resolved outside the appropriate box.
39. [7:18 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Whatever gets your bread buttered sir.
40. [7:25 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: I consider this concerted and sustained attempt at baiting me, at trying to prove that l possess a legal brain, so childish that it, more than anything else, effectively guaranteed that l will resist any and all attempts at eliciting a legal opinion from me. The utter foolishness of a grown man thinking that they might dare me to speak in a particular fashion would be jarring if it wasn't that unsurprising
41. [7:45 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: CORRECTION: I consider this concerted and sustained attempt at baiting me, at trying to goad me to prove that l possess a legal brain, so childish that it, more than anything else, effectively guarantees that l will resist any and all attempts at eliciting a legal opinion from me. The utter foolishness of a grown ass man thinking that they might dare me to speak in a particular fashion would be jarring if it wasn't that unsurprising.
And the sycophantic roping in of @Mutumwa Mawere's contributions as if he needs a spokesman is just downright silly.
42. [7:46 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: A rebellion of ideas is not such a bad idea
43. [7:47 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Tino you will be surprised what silence means and what the alternative does in respect of sharpening and clarifying ideas.
44. [7:49 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: its sad that some guys pano think simply providing a document means the contents are facts. anything documented is fact. really? if that is the case then Statutory Instrument by Chinamasa wc specified SMM has facts.
45. [7:51 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: chapter 14 c does make reference to national resources
46. [7:51 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: What is a fact? I think you know or ought to know better.
47. [7:52 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: handiti mati here producing doc means contents are facts?
48. [7:53 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: anyway its wrong to say providing a document means contents of doc are factual
49. [7:54 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Oh ok. What would be alternative when there may not be a basis to know or relive experiences
50. [7:55 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Now you say I'm being "sycophantic" and "silly" for expressing my high regard for you and comradely discoursing with you.
Let's remain of a decorum interaction.
If you have been offended that I expected legal arguments from you, it's unfortunate.
51. [7:55 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: S72 of N Consttn allowing acquisition of property by state if that is n national interest..that applied to mines.
52. [7:55 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that an evidence based approach to resolving disputes is preferable?
53. [7:58 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: There is a limitation and the devil would then creep in as to how national interest ought to be defined and under what kind of constitutional order. You can imagine what national interest is where the big man is perceived to be the sole thinker
54. [7:59 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: finally whilst new Consttn does not say much abt natural resources like Minerals, the Mines and Mining Act addresses that and its clear in Section 2 that dominion in and rigght of minining and searching is vested in the president subject to the Act. The MMA Bill as it stands rit nw does not seek to amend that
55. [8:01 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Still new Consttn devotes entire Chapter 16 to agric land wc is vested in the state and wc means if u discover minerals on your farm, the minerals are not yours
56. [8:03 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that the reference to the President is only in respect of his capacity to act on behalf of the individual sovereigns and not on his behalf?
57. [8:05 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Who minerals would they be? Are you suggesting that minerals come into existence because of governmental intervention
58. [8:09 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: If u discover minerals on your farm the state has the right to expropriate. The constitution and draft mining act cover this very comprehensively
59. [8:12 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Precisely the government is just an administrative organ to allocate rights. The right to expropriate is just an alienation mechanism that has nothing to do with the existential question let alone exclusionary notion. The govt has no nexus with the physical mineral whose creation has nothing to do with any natural let alone juristic entity like government
60. [8:13 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: Mdhara you have gone too deep. Can you put this is plain English
61. [8:15 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Hanzi, hurumende ingovawo zvayo mabharani, zvinhu zviri muvhu ndezve aita njere kana kuti rombo rakanaka rokuzvinonga
62. [8:15 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: If minerals of value were left in the open and anyone could access with government actors at the top of the chain what would be the outcome. Extraction of minerals let alone finding them is not free. It requires more than slogans or wish lists.
63. [8:15 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: Kkk thanks Tino for breaking it down
64. [8:16 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Thanks Tino for trying to explain on behalf but you will agree that i am saying more and differently from your welcome summary
65. [8:23 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Just try to picture the drama if the act of finding minerals was vested in elected office bearers and the minerals as a matter of fact and law belonged to a creature of man - government - that can be monopolized and used as a personal football with impunity like the facts of SMM show with Chinamasa taking the position of Minister of SMM with no one seeing evil. What do we learn from the SMM facts about investing in the idea that working for a government gives one the creator-like powers? Who would want to leave government?
66. [8:24 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: PacheduπŸ˜€
67. [8:26 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that we need to interrogate critically the promise and limits of the creature called government and what sort of people and morality would be required for people who should act in its name?
68. [8:26 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: What subsection are you talking about?
69. [8:28 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Kindly quote relevant sections.
70. [8:28 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Goes without saying. But doesn't change the fact that one of the uses of the 'state' is to act as a trustee over commonly shared 'things' in the territory of said state for and on behalf of the people calling the geographical entity it occupies home
71. [8:29 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: Read the whole section Cde it's not very laborious
72. [8:30 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I think no one is disputing that but the reality if that the state doesn't act but mortal humans do. What do we learn about the exercise of public power?
73. [8:34 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I thought when we are discussing such things requiring specifics, one would say according to section chakuti subsection nhingirikini zvinonzi.
Either quoting or taking a screenshot of the relevant section would help.
It's my humble request
74. [8:35 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: Ko inga panyorwa wani kuti Section 72 yebumbiro remutemo
75. [8:36 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can you unpack and link to the contested issue?
76. [8:36 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I can't see the subsection of section 72 iri kuenderana nezvataurwa.
77. [8:38 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: . To put it plainly all agric land belongs to the state and the state can take it away.
78. [8:38 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Where does it say so?
79. [8:39 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: What are the precise words and then we can add our own views?
80. [8:44 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Public power doesn't belong to any public official. It belongs to the collectivity of the sovereigns, the citizens.
It's public trust and this means that public officials are stewards.
Here are the constitutional provisions:
https://m.facebook.com/notes/shingai-rukwata-ndoro/publicofficecharter-of-zimbabwe/1539323926081606
81. [8:45 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Still on documents, if producing a docs means the contents a facts and true, attached is an affidavit in which MDM is accused essentially of corruption(fraud/theft)..shld it be concluded that the accusations are true bcz they are in document format? Mawere EXTRADITION-PAPERS-0124 pagesPDF1 MB
82. [8:45 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 234 2053: Izvo
83. [8:49 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Thanks for getting us to the SMM matter and perhaps help in unpacking what is the difference between an allegation and conviction and more importantly about the use of public power.
Can you pinpoint through a snapshot the precise wording of the statement relating to the alleged mischief so that we can determine using actual facts the question that remains whether Zimbabwe is a constitutional state?
84. [8:51 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Let us focus on precise words. What does right, title and interest mean?
85. [8:51 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: These are accusations that should be tested in a court of law through a due process.
86. [8:53 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: my point is having a document does not mean its contents are facts or truths
87. [8:54 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Where does it say that all land belongs to the state?
88. [8:54 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Section 290 of new Constn
89. [8:54 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: You need to distinguish a primary document as a source and a document of accusations.
90. [8:55 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: yo document had accusations too
91. [8:56 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: What is the land of Schedule 7?
92. [8:56 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: so only yours is primary evn tho it has accusations?
93. [8:56 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: That's a contrived distinction. A primary document can be a document with accusations. The two aren't the same at all
94. [8:57 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that Turnall Zimbabwe is a company operating in Zimbabwe? Do you agree that exporting of goods is not an illegal act? Do you agree that Turnall is manufacturing company incapable of exporting asbestos as it only uses the fibre to produce finished products? Do you agree that the asbestos mines are separate juristic entities? Do you agree that the deponent manufactured facts as Turnall never bought asbestos to resale? Do you agree that if the facts deposed to were factually incorrect, this would constitute an offence in a functioning democracy?
95. [8:58 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: exporting without remitting what u are obliged to remit to Zimbabwe is illegal
96. [8:58 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: A contract is a primary document.
So is a transaction.
So is a certificate of ownership.
97. [8:58 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The point is that the production of documents allows us to interrogate facts therefrom like what we are trying or should do.
98. [8:59 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: of course..but lets not talk as if simply providing a doc means the doc has facts..thats what some of us objected to
99. [8:59 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that the act of failing to remit cannot occur in the exporting country?
100. [9:01 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: it is alleged you got paid bt deliberately dd not remit due share to the state thru RBZ
101. [9:01 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Agreed but at least now we are talking to documents. Your position is well understood. What is on documents cant be final or the universe
102. [9:01 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: MDM: yes, agreed
103. [9:02 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: So is a charge sheet
104. [9:02 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that the failure to pay would be an act relevant to the receiving country and that Zimbabwe has no jurisdiction to investigate the affairs of a debtor in a foreign state?
105. [9:04 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: If we agree then do you agree that in a commercial transaction there are or should be two contracting parties
106. [9:04 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: A charge sheet isn't a primary document because it actually needs primary documents to support the charges.
107. [9:05 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: in yout view MDM but not at law. The laws of Zim allow Zim Gvnt to investigate you if you have your assets on Zim land. Yu can not expect the law to protect your assets whilst u are abroad and when that same law wants to investigate u say it does not apply to u
108. [9:05 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can i propose that we focus on the SMM matter that Jones is now part of and then proceed to look at rights?
109. [9:05 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: I see. Thank you.
110. [9:07 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Who is the relevant party here in terms of what is stated in the affidavit?
111. [9:08 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: @263772573823 what is your take on this?
112. [9:08 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: If authority assigned to a public officer is a public trust, it means the public officer is a TRUSTEE.
113.
114. The SOVEREIGN is therefore the collectivity of the citizens of Zimbabwe expressed through the Constitution.
115.
116. If a public officer is a TRUSTEE, it follows that he/she is simply providing administrative and stewardship services to the SOVEREIGN.
117. [9:08 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: @447481818249 what is your take
118. [9:09 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can we at least deal with issues that speak to the mandate in an orderly and focused manner?
119. [9:09 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Let me check what Magaisa and Mahere have to say on the point and get back to you on that
120. [9:10 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: This is correct.
121. [9:11 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: The law cannot be said to only apply when it suits the entity subject to said law
122. [9:12 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Thanks you will not the operative term used by Jones is YOU. In terms of the affidavit who is this animal?
123. [9:12 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Who is subject to the law and what does international law say to this?
124. [9:13 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Whoever is the person/entity on whose behalf the affidavit it made.
125. [9:13 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: International law can only supersede domestic law where a law has been passed saying it can
126. [9:13 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: The sole shareholder of SMM was/is SMMH.
SMMH is a foreign company registered in Britain.
The sole shareholder of SMMH is the British Virgin Island registered ARL, whose sole shareholder MDM.
When a company has allegedly broken the law, do you investigate management, directors or shareholders?
127. [9:13 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The wording is shown above
128. [9:14 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I think we are focusing on this construction.
129. [9:14 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Let us understand the state of mind of the deponent
130. [9:15 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: No, you look to the agents of the company that have assisted in the commission of the malfeasance/wrong since as a question of fact a piece of paper filed in the Virgin Islands cannot commit the same.
131. [9:16 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: This is the deponent and his standing at the time.
132. [9:18 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Precisely. In terms of Mabunda's sworn statement, who was the relevant party alleged to have exported?
133. [9:21 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Please join me in welcoming Prenade
134. [9:26 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that the only relevant party would have been Turnall Zimbabwe and that Mabunda being the investigation officer would have easily been able to establish who was a director or not of the company at the time?
135. [9:28 AM, 10/30/2016] +263 77 587 5828: Welcome prenadeπŸ‘πŸΎ
136. [9:29 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I am talking about the application of sovereign laws in respect of actions that occur outside the borders. Let us say, i am speeding in country A and this is established and not in dispute. Can i be arraigned for the offence in country B?
137. [9:36 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: Some crimes have universal jurisdiction others don't
138. [9:37 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Now turning to the issue in the forum, what is your considered opinion?
139. [9:42 AM, 10/30/2016] +44 7481 818249: If government thought there was something worth investigating then it became necessary to pierce the corporate veil and get all the way to you
140. [9:44 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: With respect to piercing the corporate veil, who should pierce the veil? Can an Investigating Officer depart from the facts of the crime to fish out someone outside the four corners of the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act?
141. [9:51 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Please comment
142. [9:52 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Barclays, HSBC and Goldman Sachs have shareholders.
None of these shareholders were pursued by the law enforcement agents when there were malfeasances.
I'm still shocked by the weak or total disregard for the separate treatment of management, directors and shareholders.
143. [9:53 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: @447481818249 do you agree that an Investigating Officer lacks authority and incumbency to determine any dispute regarding the lifting of a corporate veil
144. [9:55 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I think the dispute that is in motion relates to the allegation made by Tino that it is permissible in a constitutional democracy for an Investigating Officer to lift the corporate veil. What is your take on this specific point
145. [10:00 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: ,
146. [10:02 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: I am checking if the Presidential Powers(Temp Measures Act) cld have bn invoked to pierce the corporate veil if ever there was piercing
147. [10:07 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Before that you need to check on the old constitution the grounds permissible to invoke temporary measures of presidential powers which is called state of emergency.
148. [10:09 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: MDM: what was your role or position tho in Turnal Zimbabwe ?
149. [10:09 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Remember the timeline. What was the date of the affidavit? What was the date of the reconstruction legislation and order?
150. [10:10 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Good question.
But let's seek to know who were the shareholders of Turnall during the time in question.
151. [10:11 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: You are now asking the correct question. Do you not think that an unbiased exercise of public power would have asked the question before putting to paper rubbish. I was neither a director nor shareholder of Turnall
152. [10:12 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: S385 of Crimnal Procdure and Evdnce Act authorizes the prosecution of a company chair or director whethet executive or non executive for company offenses. It is on that basis that the state sought to prosecute MDM for Turnal Zim failure to remit part of sales proceeds to the state.
153. [10:12 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: What if the legal facts dont support your hypothesis
154. [10:13 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: What position did he hold in Turnall?
155. [10:14 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Please help me welcome Gilbert Nyambabvu, the editor of New Zimbabwe, an online newspaper
156. [10:14 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: no, old Consttn dd not limit invocation of Prez Powers Act to declaring state of emergency only
157. [10:14 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: As i said above. I didnt hold any position at all. If i did, the Investigating Officer suffered no disability to say it in a sworn affidavit where conduct was concerned.
158. [10:15 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I am saying that affidavit in dispute was signed on which date
159. [10:15 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: I have characterized the state of emergency using the old constitution.
What matter of fact have I got it wrong?
160. [10:16 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can we resolve this extradition issue to finality?
161. [10:16 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Ok
162. [10:17 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Tino and Jones, do you have any disputation on this?
163. [10:18 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Please take note of when Mabunda signed the affidavit.
164. [10:20 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Presidential Pwrs Act can be invoked, as it was to set elections date in 2013
165. [10:22 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can we focus?
166. [10:23 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: ok
167. [10:24 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: 17 May 2004
168. [10:24 AM, 10/30/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: So u had absolutely nothing to do with TZ(Turnal Zim)?
169. [10:25 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can you assist
170. [10:26 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Zero. I was sitting on no Zim board. This was the case since 1997. I am not sure what nothing means if you are thinking within the confines of the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act
171. [10:29 AM, 10/30/2016] +27 78 391 5569: Thank you so much for adding me.
172. My name is Prenade Makumborenga & I am a Digital Marketing Consultant. I specialise in Content & Social Media Management for corporate and personal brands!
173. [10:29 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: πŸ‘‹πŸΎπŸ‘‹πŸΎ
174. [10:34 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: For ease of reference. This is an extract of the applicable law s385 (5) of the Criminal Procedure and Evidence Act of Zimbabwe
175. [10:38 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: You will note that in the extradition document this is what was stated
176. [10:38 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The Act
177. [11:41 AM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: In the first place were proceeds of a private company to be submitted to gvt? Is that the perception of gvt we have that private individuals must work and give over what they receive to gvt or gvt is expected to levy tax in the ordinary cause of business and where tax is owed deal with at in terms of tax law? It is I teresting to note that we can argue and Base the gvt's ownership of resources on chapter 16 of the Constitution which we know that the mischief theory that gave birth to that chapter is the ZANU PF land problem. You buy a house, you assume the lad where your house is, is gvt land? Mining deals with various other licences like prospective rights and so forth because they of necessity deal with another resources which is never considered when you acquire the land and that does not pass the resource to gvt. The separation of such is a means of ensuring maximisation of resources because the owner of the land might not be interested in mining or so understand it. The law of property clear talks of natural resources, treasure troves, when a wild animal belongs to a person and when it is considered without an owner, including discovery as a means of ownership. These laws were so put without the mischief theory in mind but with the desire to give certainty to ownership. Where gvts depart from the normal and try to make laws that are nonsensical and people accept that I personally find details that repulsive and devoid of logic and reasoning. The expectation that gvt owns anything which it has not worked for is a socialist myopic kind of thinking in my view that has no placing in a modern society where gvt is viewed as a slave master and with better rights than all other individuals when gvt is no individual but in this case and grouping of it individuals purporting to represent the none thinking and nine entitled animals that are less equal than others
178. [11:53 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The issue that is still in the forum relates to Mabunda's affidavit.
179. [11:53 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Have you read it?
180. [11:55 AM, 10/30/2016] Shingai Ndoro: The actions of the state should be within set legal principles and under the law within the confines of the common rules of natural justice:
the rule against bias ("nemo iudex in causa sua," or "no person is a judge in his/her own cause"), and
the right to a fair hearing ("audi alteram partem," or "hear the other side")
181. [11:55 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: This is where we are now.
182. [11:56 AM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can we deal with the issue of the facts and circumstances of the corporate veil and how specifically it can be lifted?
183. [12:00 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: It is clear that Tino believes that in a constitutional democracy it is permissible for an investigator to fish outside the pond. The law prescribes who can be prosecuted in relation to offences committed in the name of a company.
So far Tino who is a trained attorney has steadfastly refused to address the specific facts of Mabunda's affidavit that informed the issuance of a warrant of apprehension against me.
Because the facts dont confirm what appears to be an entrenched position, when they are put on the table, the silence is telling.
184. [12:02 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: I see the problems here,some people hold the philosophy that gvt is an unnecessary entity but Still find themselves having to comply with the laws of the land
185. [12:03 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: What is your view on the lifting of the corporate veil?
186. [12:12 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Which one in particular
187. [12:13 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Tino sees no evil and hears no evil from Mabunda's affidavit in relation to the extradition matter.
Have you seen the affidavit?
188. [12:14 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Not yet EXTRADITION PAPERS 01-224 pagesPDF1 MB
189. [12:16 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: We were focusing on the mischief inherent in this affidavit
190. [12:20 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: If you were the presiding officer and were confronted with the one page affidavit, what questions would you have raised? Do you believe that Mabunda's affidavit passes the legal muster?
191. [12:21 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Its running a trial and jury
192. [12:23 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: What do mean?
193. [12:24 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Thats besides the point,,these people are obviously working with a conclusion in mind....the question which arises is how do you justify yourself to a gvt entity tht you so clearly disbelieve
194. [12:25 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Have you gone through Mabunda's affidavit?
195. [4:17 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Its doesnt,but Then what's your question clearly
196. [4:24 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Have read carefully and critically the Mabunda affidavit
197. [4:39 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Do you suspect that i cant
198. [4:45 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: No actually it is to encourage the group to read between the lines and relive the context and content
199. [4:46 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: We can read together so that we can live up to the promise of a master class. In this case, we will play as if i am the master and you the follower and you can ask questions or if you prefer i can lead.
200. [4:49 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: I prefer that clear cut discussion over sophistries
201. [4:52 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Then i can ask the questions. No sophistication. There is no dispute that Mabunda was the person who deposed to an affidavit that was relied upon to obtain a warrant of apprehension from a magistrate.
202. [4:53 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: We agree that in terms of the first paragraph, an allegation is made that a company called Turnall Zimbabwe was the vehicle through which the mischief took place.
203. [4:57 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: For the record, no company existed called Turnall Zimbabwe. The only company that is known to me was Turnall Fibre Cement Private Limited. This company was involved in the beneficiation of asbestos to make various products including roofing and piping products. It bought asbestos fibre from SMM and used the product in the manufacturing of final products. In its history it never traded asbestos but sold products that could not be described as asbestos
204. [5:02 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: To add asbestos were marketed by SAS on behalf of MMCZ which recieved the payments on behalf of smmh,and they were on board in the marketing process,should there have been any complaints,they were to be raised by MMCZ not the police
205. [5:04 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The affidavit was in May 2004 yet the facts in the above paragraph suggests that the said claims by Turnall related to goods that were exported almost 360 days before. If Zimbabwe did not have exchange controls, then one would be tempted to ignore the absurdity. So it is alleged that Turnall exported asbestos in June 2003 and no payment was received. No supporting statement is attached confirming that the exporting and importing parties were aware of the allegations. It is not disclosed as to who was the complainant and how a police officer would have access to the records of a private company in the ordinary course of business.
206. [5:05 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: We are together on this one
207. [5:08 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: So which type of law is at work here,,where figures are picked from thin air
208. [5:11 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that in respect of a criminal complaint there ought to have been a complainant? The complainant would need to complete an affidavit yet in this unusual case a police officer interposed himself in respect of a company with details about the affairs of a company that he was not authorised to act on behalf of.
209. [5:16 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: I agree that the position taken by the police is that of a complainant in affairs it is not part of...what i dont get are the figures being generated of money being said to have been diverted,,but Again having the timeline within my grasp im led to wonder if the actors could not creat a better allegation
210. [5:18 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Again the statement is not an allegation but that of fact.
211. [5:20 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: So you agree that it would appear that the investigations had already been completed. Again no disclosure was made of the context in which i was supposed to be implicated.
212. [5:27 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: Who was the complainant in the matter to involve the Police and raise a criminal matter? Was Turnall in any way a public entity? If it was not then for an interview individual to be arrested in his capacity in the normal the company would have laid charges of theft against such person or fraud. What was the locus standi of the state in the matter anyway? Was that the PCA? How many times do we see police going I to private companies sniffing that employees have stolen from their companies? Is that their duty or their duty is to maintain peace and order and ensure that should a dispute arise between contracting parties it is resolving lawfully without self-help?
213. [5:29 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Thanks. In this matter, the only facts we have are as follows:
214. [5:31 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: This only came to light after the affidavit had been used to procure a warrant.
215. [5:31 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Yes,im sure by now every1 understands that part,,but Still,given that the events are occuring within a timeline,accusations are piling up within a short space of time
216. [5:37 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: You will how the statement used to obtain a warrant in Zim was soon abandoned. You will see the versions being elastic.
217. [5:37 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: Who had violated the said act and had the company already been charged and found guilty to jump to a person because before you charge a person I their capacity the company must have failed to honour the obligations arising out of an act or omission that is prohibited. We must appreciate that the so called piercing of the corporate veil is meant and was ever meant to extend liability which had been limited on realising get that th3 company cannot meet the obligations arising out of the claims and therefore th3 directors are then jointly barged with the company. Unfortunately we use.this loosely forgetting that a convoy is always responsible for at some of its employees including the vicarious liability theory. There is a mischief of chasing directors before the company fails. It is up to the company to then pursue the employees after it has been charged or this can be done contemporaneously but the company acting for itself.
218. [5:38 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: That is why i was imploring you to fasten your seat belts
219. [5:40 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: You are too fast. Can we go step by step to establish whether the IO knowingly and wittingly committed an offence on 17 May 2004
220. [5:41 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Let us focus on the truthfulness of the sworn statement and state of mind and knowledge on the part of the IO.
221. [5:43 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Would an IO have had constructive knowledge that he was about to deprive someone his freedom by deposing to this affidavit? Uf he did, then what would be the rational expectation in a constitutional democracy
222. [5:49 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Do we agree that the offence could only have been committed in the importing country and by officers of the importer. There is no mention as to where the goods would have been delivered and to when including the supporting documents related to the amounts to the cent
223. [5:54 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: The offence would have had to non payment by the importer and no competent charges could be preferred against Turnall and its officers unless there was evidence confirming conduct in diverting funds as a matter of fact which evidence would have had to be disclosed if it exists. It would be interesting for FOSMM to seek to discover what was in the docket on 17 May 2004.
224. [6:01 PM, 10/30/2016] +263 73 344 2739: guys.we all know how things r in zim
225. we r tryin to gt reason from md circumstances n events bt we all know dt there is no rule of law in zim n reason z never free from passion.they jus gt whoever they wana get wt we must b focusin on is how to change the status quo
226. [6:02 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: In ký view there could still be a crime of tax evasion in the exporting country if the goods were donated because goods should be sold for value and if that value is not anywhere in the office come statements of the company. The crime would be only as far as the company's income is understated with the effect of depriving the tax man of his dues. A company that trades should not be told how to conduct it's business as it can use the receipts I'm the country of sale by buying other implements or further engaging I to other ventures. That is the freedom of the trader. The state would only be involved in charging import duties should things be imported or tax on revenue as per the intention come statements and the issues should involve tax evasion if any. The paper trail and value on paper is what matters not the physical money. Besides debtors could take longer to pay and the evidence that payment had been received was obtained from where by whom?
227. [6:03 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Wrong forum. If you want to learn you are at home and if you want regime change dont use whats up.
228. [6:04 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: Income statements not intention come statements
229. [6:05 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Again let us try to focus on the facts as disclosed in the affidavit.
230. [6:06 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Your comments though useful fail to speak to Mabunda and the task at hand to formulate a possible FOSMM cause of action
231. [6:10 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: I am not sure what is the sought cause of action because the deponent's state of mind in making the affidavit moot and academic question which can only be found dead in his mind and unfortunately the court does not try a guilty mind but the action. The mind is tried later to establish whether there was intention particularly mens tea which can be established through a judiciary enquiry based on facts or evidence like the affidavit
232. [6:11 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: If one deposes to an affidavit with false information, what should be the consequences?
233. [6:12 PM, 10/30/2016] +263 73 344 2739: im sayin they knew wt they wr doin and they used wteva means dt was available to them.looks like they wr js hidin behind a finger
234. [6:15 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Let us dissect the facts in order to draw conclusions
235. [6:15 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Please allow me to announce:
Congratulations to Itai Arthur Manyere on his election as the 2017 JCI Africa & Middle East Development Council (AMDEC) President.
He becomes the second ever from JCI Zimbabwe in its 49 years of existence to hold this position after JCI Senator Victor Marawu who was in a similar position in 2013
236. [6:16 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: I think the affidavit could only sure what we assume to be and yet one could argue lack on knowledge which can be excused for stupidity or incompetence on the part of the part of the IO. The IO had been mandated to investigate by someone and this is information about the address in Zimbabwe is often not a big issue if it had a nexus with Mr Mawere. If it was your last known address then indeed service should have been done there lawfully because all your business had been done on that address as your domicilum citandi et executandi. The onus was on you to change that address when you left Zimbabwe as per the law
237. [6:18 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Can we be guided by the contents of the affidavit and not what we think? What was said and what specifically would expose the depondent and not his presumed masters
238. [6:19 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: Perjury here would be averred and proven with the onus on the one alleging it based on what was your address of choice for your business transactions before you left the country and the address shown on documents did it have any nexus with you in the absence of the one where you stayed linking you to it still? Remember property can be used to found jurisdiction and the thought is no so completely far fetched.
239. [6:20 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: We are just on the affidavit of 17 May and i dont get where the address issue arises in this affidavit. It is just one page.
240. [6:21 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: We know that hence we want to critically go through this affidavit to confirm if a crime was committed by Mabunda and not anyone else.
241. [6:23 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: Mr Mawere rather suggest what you want to suggest than keep directing to a point then we can agree if we see it or disagree because we will be in the matter of the affidavit while we do not see what you see or want us to see. State your case then we can agree or disagree. Someone said th2 one who has a stone I the shoe is the one that states the level of pain meaning if you see a default point it out rather than send us on a chase because we might not see it. Let's not treat this as an examination but rather let's expose the facts that we see so that others can agree or disagree.
242. [6:24 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: If dont see anything wrong in the affidavit that is fine. Let us all try to read and learn.
243. [6:26 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: In my view again this affidavit is a summary of findings but does not give in detail how the crime was conducted but rather that there were suspicious which made you a suspect and there is nothing wrong with arresting a suspect to come and answer to the changes and initiate proceedings. The affidavit is based on a docket which will reveal all the allegations and now we cannot enter into the mind of Mabunda based on the affidavit because we can only speculate
244. [6:27 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: Charges not changes
245. [6:27 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Thats what i was advocating for ealier on...what i meant by sophistries then is a type of discussion where the end is to find a philosophical conclusion, of which these are matters of fact that deserve their own clarity to be easily accessible
246. [6:27 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: Let us read the affidavit of 17 May 2004 and gather different observations. You can make yours and i can do as well.
247. [6:28 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: We might need to get the docket to but still it is permissable for suspects to be arrested and come to court so that they are formally charged there is no mischief there.
248. [6:29 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: If that us your view that is fine and let us allow others to reflect on the affidavit and the case as formulated by the state.
249. [6:31 PM, 10/30/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: I have made my findings as it were based on the affidavit that there is no prima facie case of conspiracy to anything based on the issue interpretation of the given Acts at that time except a Constitutional Court case be mounted on whether the interpretation was correct or not.
250. [9:29 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Were you running SAS,,maybe facts might ve skipped me,,i thought this was an SA co Doing marketing for MMCZ which appointed SMMH Officials on the board just for operational reasons,are there any missing details
251. [9:43 PM, 10/30/2016] MD Mawere: I was not running SAS
252. [9:55 PM, 10/30/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Mmm and its a fact that no mineral passes through the boarder without MMCZ
253. [7:09 AM, 10/31/2016] Tinashe Mpasiri: So exchange controls came into effect when Go no was appointed RBZ governor?
254. [7:11 AM, 10/31/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Exchange controls have always been there before Gono.
255. [7:11 AM, 10/31/2016] Tinashe Mpasiri: Ok
256. [7:11 AM, 10/31/2016] Tinashe Mpasiri: Thank you

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