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FOSMM WHATSAPP THREAD ON 1 NOVEMBER 2016 - Knowledge Sharing on Arrest Warrant, Affidavit, Prosecution & Investgation.

Posted on November 01st 2016

1. [1:01 AM, 11/1/2016] Thinga: Founded in zimbabwe
2. [1:06 AM, 11/1/2016] Thinga: Thought Virgin islands,, but Then if the police can't get facts about the companies they,re citing wouldnt that be a point of reference of the malicious intents thereof
3. [2:58 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: guys an applctn for warrant of arrest is not a trial where the Prosecution wld have to prove the case
4. [3:07 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: we nid to establish on what basis MDM was linked by the IO to Turnal Zim...pane zvekuti u put your front men/women whilst u run the shw behind the scenes. When that company engages in illegal conduct, wosiiwa here bcz on paperu are not a director/chair of the company?
5. [4:42 AM, 11/1/2016] Shingai Ndoro: "Fronting" is neither a legal nor a business term. arrest-warrant
It's a political term for attacking those you don't like who are in business.
A person has specific roles and positions in a company - worker, manager, director and shareholder.
There is no position of a "front."
6. [4:46 AM, 11/1/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Actually it's an insulting and dehumanizing word.
7. [5:13 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It is clear that insulting has become the norm and conflating issues a bad habit even in this small community of friends of SMM.
8. [5:48 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: hmmm dont be cry-babies gentlemen. Fronting is an insult pakuita sei?
9. [5:48 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: instead of answering question u 2 gents decide to cry foul
10. [5:49 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: There has to be a before arresting.
11. [5:51 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: of wc the Police in their view had reasonable suspicion that u MDM had engaged in illegal conduct..
12. [5:51 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: and following due process, the IO sought for warrent of arrest...what alternative due process dd u want them to follow?
13. [5:52 AM, 11/1/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Whose front are you?
14. [5:52 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: if they had made an ambush arrest of MDM, then yes that wld be a big problem
15. [5:53 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: i am my own front. whose front are you?
16. [5:54 AM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: well said
17. [5:55 AM, 11/1/2016] Shingai Ndoro: Let's refrain from using this insulting word!
Speech is hateful when it meets the following criteria:
1. Physically hurtful or enabling an environment where physical violence or inflicting of pain is acceptable;
2. Psychological or emotional harm or its incitement that can impinge upon human dignity through attitudes, alienation, exclusion, discrimination and marginalization; and
3. Promoting hatred or abuse of the targeted individual or group of people.
18. [5:55 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: mudhara Dziva: is it not reasonable to suspect that as a rich guy u probably wanted special treatment before the law?
19. [5:56 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: A lot of these rich pple want to be above the law. I wonder if MDM dd not have same attitudd
20. [5:57 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: hw is front an insult?
21. [5:59 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Dziva are u talking the ideal or the real as contained in Zim laws?
22. [6:01 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: Dziva if u are talking what is not written in law then smart as u are, u know how to get the laws amended
23. [6:03 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: those who the IO erred, can u explain what was the correct due process to follow?
24. [6:04 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: say*
25. [6:09 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: mudhara Dziva: if those ideals are missing in our laws, then relevant ones shld be inputed. That process requires lobbying law makers to input those ideals
26. [6:16 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I fail to see the relevance of all this. It does follow that just because a warrant of arrest if issue then ipso facto a person is deprived of their liberty.
27. [6:17 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: When an arrested person goes to the police station and immediately offers full and adequate information placing the police investigators' minds at ease as to their innocence there would be no need to detain the person further. Detention becomes necessary when the facts as they emerge from the police interview not only show that a crime was committed, but that the person of interest has a case to answer
28. [6:20 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: This reproduction of tangentially relevant information is the reason why in subsequent litigation, you ended up with 1000 page pleadings. Just because a case has some passing or fleeting resemblance to your own does not make it precedence for you.
29. [6:22 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Good lord!
30. [6:29 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: All this, Mawere, is highly irrelevant and completely immaterial to the question of an application for a warrant of arrest. This is (1) describing principles of English common law, which ours is not, and (2) crucially, talking about a prosecution and the bar that the prosecutor needs to pass to prefer charges and in fact prosecutor. The affidavit was about an arrest, and the standard needed to justify an arrest is a very low one. And an application for a warrant of arrest is not a prosecution, so all these 'authorities' you are citing are completely useless to the issue.
31. [6:31 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Nhai veduwee!
32. [6:34 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Thanks for encouraging scholarship. We need to test your considered assertions on this matter with the facts and law
33. [6:35 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Relevant law though, not anything slightly associated
34. [6:35 AM, 11/1/2016] Owen Magocha: Mr Mawere which legal system are you citing as authority. Next time can you footnote so that before we read we know if the source is applicable .
35. [6:39 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Precisely
36. [6:39 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I fail to see the relevance of all this. It does follow that just because a warrant of arrest if issue then ipso facto a person is deprived of their liberty.
When an arrested person goes to the police station and immediately offers full and adequate information placing the police investigators' minds at ease as to their innocence there would be no need to detain the person further. Detention becomes necessary when the facts as they emerge from the police interview not only show that a crime was committed, but that the person of interest has a case to answer
This reproduction of tangentially relevant information is the reason why in subsequent litigation, you ended up with 1000 page pleadings. Just because a case has some passing or fleeting resemblance to your own does not make it precedence for you.
All this, Mawere, is highly irrelevant and completely immaterial to the question of an application for a warrant of arrest. This is (1) describing principles of English common law, which ours is not, and (2) crucially, talking about a prosecution and the bar that the prosecutor needs to pass to prefer charges and in fact prosecutor. The affidavit was about an arrest, and the standard needed to justify an arrest is a very low one. And an application for a warrant of arrest is not a prosecution, so all these 'authorities' you are citing are completely useless to the issue.
37. [6:40 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: [01/11, 06:31] ‪+44 7482 544352‬: Is there a point to these thousands of pages you are posting?‬‬
38. [01/11, 06:31] mdmawere1: Yes
39. [01/11, 06:32] ‪+44 7482 544352‬: Can you make it? Sometime today perhaps?‬‬
40. [01/11, 06:32] mdmawere1: Make what?
41. [01/11, 06:33] ‪+44 7482 544352‬: The point. Because these authorities you are citing have no relevance whatsoever to the issue of an arrest warrant or an application for the same‬‬
42. [01/11, 06:36] mdmawere1: If that is your opinion then let us educate each other in the public square. The objective is to enrich and enlighten on key issues that are important in changing the character and personality of Zimbabwe.
43. [01/11, 06:37] ‪+44 7482 544352‬: I have been making that point for the last 30 minutes but it got buried in your document dump‬‬
44. [01/11, 06:39] mdmawere1: We discussed about the need for a master class and i consider you to be a master who can choose to share knowledge without favour or prejudice. We are short of objectively minded masters and if they exist we rarely don't know them
45. [6:56 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You are losing me. Zimbabwe is a constitutional state and you have said repeatedly that a warrant of arrest is an inocous affair and you see no legal or constitutional mischief.
You provided no authorities to support your bold assertions.
We look to you as a lawyer to provide the required intellectual compass for those that are troubled by the condition that Zimbabwe finds itself in to make informed decisions about where the real faultlines were.
You have declared that you see no mischief in the Mabunda affidavit and the onus is on others to provide an alternative narrative.aid1128273-728px-write-an-affidavit-step-2-version-2
I presume you have said all you wanted to say that Mabunda's actions were proper and bona fide.
If Mabunda's actions can find a secure and comfortable place in a democratic society, let the facts speak for themselves.
Please also respect this forum for it has people including Hon Holder who is close to the coal face.
He needs to know the facts and whether public power was abused. Mabunda is not President Mugabe and must account for his actions including deposing the affidavit.
46. [7:00 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: "Please also respect this forum for it has people including Hon Holder who is close to the coal face". That does not compute
47. [7:01 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinashe Mpasiri: This is necessary for the Master Class. I have surely taken interest in learning a subject that I was at one point ignorant of.
48. [7:05 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: He has introduced a motion in parliament regarding SMM and this is due for debate.
49. He may not know where and who did what.
It is therefore important for us to show with facts whether the actions of Mabunda the person on the forum whose actions set in motion irreversible facts leading to the demise of SMM.
Although Hon Holder may live in Zvishavane he may not have known the role played by the ZRP and Mabunda in precipitating the demise of SMM.
We therefore need to respect the law and facts so that we can subject them to universally acceptable norms and standards.
No harm will be caused by using examples of how the matter has been treated in different jurisdictions.
50. [7:08 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: No harm would be done yes, and equally no relevance either Makwakwa and Others v S (A294/10) [2011] ZAFSHC 27 (11 February 2011)www.saflii.org
51. [7:08 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAFSHC/2011/27.html
52. [7:10 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Look in particular at paragraphs 33/34 but really the whole case.
[33] An enquiry in terms of section 9 of the Act is not a criminal trial. Its purpose is to enable the magistrate to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution for the offence in the foreign State. It is not necessary for the prosecutor to place all the evidence needed to prove the guilt of the person beyond reasonable doubt before the magistrate. The prosecutor need only place admissible and reliable evidence before the magistrate during the enquiry which if accepted at the subsequent trial may be enough to prove that the person has committed the offences for which s/he is sought. Conversely if the evidence is of such poor quality or unreliable that it is obvious to the magistrate that there are no reasonable prospects that the evidence would be accepted at the subsequent trial the magistrate may find that there is insufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution.12
[34] It is therefore clear that what is required by the section is adequate admissible proof to warrant a prosecution. The evidence must be sufficient for the purpose of instituting a prosecution and not sufficient to prove the guilt of the person.
While this is about extradition, it examines what is required in an enquiry to justify an arrest.
53. [7:14 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree there is need to subject Mabunda's affidavit to same test in order to dispose of any allegations of ulterior motives?
54. [7:21 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Not the same, that's just my point. Less scrutiny because that's at an even lower level of the investigation
55. [7:22 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Are you suggesting mischief can be measured and condoned because of arbitrary standards you may seek to impose
56. [7:24 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: If you want to find fault in the ZRP, place on record what you may have told them after the warrant or arrest was issued. Then we can debate if there was a deliberate act of ignoring exculpatory evidence
57. [7:24 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: There is no mischief implicit or explicit in an affidavit seeking the arrest of a person who may or may not have committed crimes
58. [7:26 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Here is the thing, l am not an apologist for the police. I think the ZRP is politicised. And it's possible they were in this case. I don't know. What l know is that that affidavit, on its own, is not evidence of anything unlawful. We should be careful to criticise those we are opposed to with facts, lest our motives become suspect.
59. [7:29 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Allow others to look at the facts and arrive at their conclusions based on the experiences in other countries. You have said your piece. There would be no harm to you if a different conclusion is reached by the majority of the people who are friends of SMM that indeed if Mabunda had acted in a detached and impartial manner, the events of SMM could have taken a different route.
Let us test the facts and we now have a framework to judge the bona fides of Mabunda.
60. [7:31 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Let facts speak better than politics. The test for constitutionalism should be universal and not prescribed especially given the universality of humanity.
61. [7:32 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The law is not a vote. It does not matter what a majority of the FOSMM thinks on a point of law for it to be valid. The facts are what they are, and the law on the point is what it is, whether it is supported by everyone or none.
62. [7:38 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You have led your case and have reached your conclusions. In the interests of good scholarship, can you allow me to lead my case and arrive at a conclusion without you pre-empting and already talking about relevance and irrelevance of strategy. You dont have to prove anything more. It is the of others to do so using whatever means to do so. The people will then like a jury judge and decide on which of the versions to take.
So please relax. This is after all a battle of ideas aimed at opening the minds on where the bugs may be in the system that have caused untold injuries to many including the SMM community.
63. [7:47 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: the notion of aligning our laws to "international and universal norms" is vague and tricky..nations do not have uniform realities therefore we shld not copy and paste laws,norms from other nations.
64. [7:49 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Nobody is trying to do that. There are facts and the law that we have to test the actions against
65. [7:50 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: lets be specific abt the laws then
66. [7:50 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Do you think the reasonable and probable cause test should not apply to Zimbabwe matters?
67. [7:51 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: it shld
68. [7:51 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Please read the Mabunda affidavit that precipitated the irreversible chain of events.
69. [7:52 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: lets make it legally clear what reasonable and probable means if its currently vague in our laws
70. [7:53 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: I already asked u MDM, what is alternative due process shld the Police have followed?
71. [7:54 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Do you see any specific act that the charge of externalization relates to. Imagine being charged of speeding and there is no law providing for the mischief. Do you think the accused needs to know the particularities and specificities of the alleged mischief in relation to actual laws in a nation of laws?
72. [7:55 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You can read what Tino describes as irrelevant. The material has been shared and in the interests of scholarship, please read and take your time to respond.
73. [7:56 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: its an application for warrant of arrest not a trial,no need to go into the whole details of wc Acts apply to the alleged offensearrest611
74. [7:56 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: no wonder why i said MDM probably wanted special treatment
75. [7:57 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Are you suggesting that in a constitutional state, the police are clothed with unfettered powers to infringe on people's fundamental rights?
76. [8:00 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: ordinary pple need just chidhindo from police or CID ID wonzi huya kuporisi station woyenda and u explain yourself. Police must no ill treat suspects, accused or convicts. Thats the law. Izvi zvekuti police shld cite they want to arrest u under Act yakati yave elite want for special treatment
77. [8:01 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: that is when they apply for warrant..its not a trial where an avanlanche of details is mandatory
78. [8:05 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: what unfettered powers? they wld not apply for a warrant of arrest kucourt if they had unfettered powers. They wld arrest and convict.
79. [8:06 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Do you have anything new to add? It seems you are allergic to a bakanced discourse and your mission is already in the public square to allow those who need to learn to be distracted.
Why dont you allow others to learn about the limitations and promise of constitutionalism?
You can then decide whether your chosen successor to Mugabe respects constitutionalism and if so, what would he do when confronted with facts that show that a low level operative could have the guts to manufacture a case that then got legs to reach where we are today or 13 years later.
There are people who are in this group who are eager to take the next step and they need all the versions to be ventilated without let or hindrance.
Please can you relax and allow possible and plausible alternative narratives to be shared.
80. [8:06 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: MDM: for abt 8 yrs you say MDM thrived under yo ownership. Was there anything the ZRP helped u with?
81. [8:07 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: We have heard you. Allow me to lead my own version. Dont do it for me. Intellectual hooliganism cannot be tolerated.
82. [8:09 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: ko Dziva you talk as if vanhu varambidzwa kutaura mawonero avo? anyway,u may proceed
83. [8:10 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: A coin must have two sides. Let us allow both sides to find expression.
84. [8:11 AM, 11/1/2016] +1 (780) 838-1646: sharp
85. [8:15 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Thank you. I am not trying to silence you but to make sure that we stay on point. If our interventions add to what is not already known, then we would have fulfilled our mission.
Our values should assist in our discourses. We believe that the rule of law is more important than the rule of man.
We need to robustly test whether the knowledge that a police officer can take it upon himself to depose to an affidavit based on facts that fall outside his purview and more importantly fail to disclose the specific act of parliament that the alleged misconduct relates to, should give us cause to be alarmed.
86. [8:33 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Just listened to Mashatile saying that the police should only charge a person when they have a solid case.
87. [8:37 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I do not think it helps many to bench contrary views just so that we carry on on a tangent. The affidavit clearly says the officer was investigating allegations. There is no need to cite an Act of Parliament because at that time, the officer had no good faith basis to believe that any Act of Parliament had been violated.
It's not true to say that the officer did not state the alleged misconduct. First, misconduct is the wrong word. Crime. Externalisation of foreign currency. That was the crime being investigated.
Further, had the officer had enough evidence st that stage to be able to cite statutes etc, he would not have needed a warrant. He would be empowered to arrest without a warrant. The mere fact of having to apply for one shows that at that stage the evidence was still thin.
The relevant questions to ask are:
1. Was an arrest effected on the basis of this warrant?
2. If do, did the accused/person of interest offer full and frank disclosure to satisfy the investigating officer that either (a) he had no case to answer because no crime had been committed or (b) that any criminal activity that might have occurred was not by him but by third parties, either corporeal or juristic?
Rehashing this affidavit or telling some people to stop talking while we regurgitate arguments from three days ago will not change this position
88. [8:37 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Exactly! And that is where you miss the point!
The affidavit is not a charge. It's about an arrest, after which an interview takes place, investigations continue AND THEN, and only if they have a solid case, THEY CHARGE YOU with a crime. The affidavit is not a charge. So it needs not show anything other than that allegations have been made. It does not need to show a solid case, merely the existence of allegations.
89. [8:38 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: You have to understand that 'charging' happens a very long time after the arrest.
90. [8:39 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Yes
91. [8:42 AM, 11/1/2016] +263 77 235 8288: PRESS STATEMENTpress-statement-470x140
1. The Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe will with immediate effect start the process towards issuance of Bond Notes as a legal tender in Zimbabwe. The process will commence with media publicity to inform and raise awareness of the public on the denominations, design, form, material and security features which are used in the Bond Notes to be introduced. This is to ensure that the public is not duped by fake Bond Notes that may be circulated into the market by unscrupulous elements in our society.
2. When the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe is satisfied that the public is sufficiently conversant with the salient features of the Bond Notes it will proceed to issue the Bond Notes accordingly in line with the Export Incentive Scheme. The Reserve Bank has recommended the Export Incentive Scheme in terms of Section 49 of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe Act (Chapter 22:15) to boost the Country's reserves through increased export earnings. The Export Incentive Scheme will therefore remedy the decline of reserves which has a negative impact on the Country's ability to make prompt settlements of its international obligations.
3. I need to highlight that under existing legislation the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe has power to issue Bond Notes in terms of the provisions of Section 7 of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe Act Chapter (22:15). The Export Incentive
92. [8:42 AM, 11/1/2016] +263 77 235 8288: Scheme could also have been introduced through Section 2 of the Exchange Control Act (Chapter 22:05) which empowers the President to make regulations relating directly or indirectly to exchange transactions and the control of imports into and exports from Zimbabwe, and payments.
4. Given the criticality of the issuance of Bond Notes as legal tender to the recovery of our economy and also the controversy that has surrounded the subject matter, it has been decided that the legality of Bond Notes as legal tender in Zimbabwe should be put beyond any measure of doubt. It is to this effect that the President has today gazetted Statutory Instrument 133 of 2016, Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures) (Amendment of Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe Act and Issue of Bond Notes) Regulations, 2016. The measures that have been gazetted under Presidential Powers Regulations will fortify and underpin the existing legal framework for the issuance of Bond Notes.
5. My appeal to the public is that they embrace the Bond Notes to ensure a sustainable recovery of our economy.Hon. P.A. Chinamasa, MPMinister of Finance and Economic Development 31 October 2016
93. [8:42 AM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: Kkkkk is this constitutional to arrest then charge??
94. [8:44 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You will note that the affidavit was signed on 17 May 2004 the same date the warrant was issued. No contact was made with the accused at all. The accused had no knowledge of the existence of the warrant before it was issued.
95. [8:44 AM, 11/1/2016] Owen Magocha: People are getting confused with legal terminology. Let's get basics even google the terminology so as to minimize arguments to core issues
96. [8:45 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: This is a public square of learning. Let us add value to it.
97. [8:46 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: If you follow the thread you will note the arguments and status. It is now my job to lead evidence that Mabunda knowingly and unlawfully exercised public power.
98. [8:47 AM, 11/1/2016] Ras: Sorry to bring in an unrelated issue. I was reading the press statement on the bond notes ane realised that again the SI has been issued on the basis of a Presidential Temporal Measures Act
99. [8:49 AM, 11/1/2016] Owen Magocha: A - The short answer is that someone is arrested when they have been detained by a Police Officer on the suspicion of committing a criminal offence. When they are charged, a formal decision has been taken that there is a ‘realistic prospect of conviction' and that it is ‘in the public interest' for a prosecution to happen. Criminal proceedings proper have then commenced.
Once someone is charged, they will either be bailed to attend the magistrates' court for the first appearance or kept in police custody overnight and taken to the magistrates' court the next day.
100. [8:49 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Wrong timing. It is important but let us focus on what is burning.
101. [8:50 AM, 11/1/2016] Dr Vusumuzi Sibanda Sibbs: That position sounds plausible and I think that is the position unless there is evidence to the contrary.
102. [8:51 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I think we have traversed this. The question is whether any test has to be met before applying for a warrant of arrest and not detention. In the exercise of the discretion granted to the police, are there any legal and constitutional dafeg
103. [8:52 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Safeguards
104. [9:07 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The accused does not necessarily need to know that a warrant has been applied for and cannot therefore know of its existence before it is issued.
105. [9:08 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You asked the question and now you are confusing me.
106. [9:09 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: This is your question.
107. [9:10 AM, 11/1/2016] Owen Magocha: What is core of the argument with a warrant of arrest. May I know your view so as to move in sync and respond accordingly
108. [9:13 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: My argument is that before a warrant of arrest is issued, there must be an objective test to establish whether the act was bona fides and in line with the limitations imposed by law and the constitution. It is and should not be a license for unlawful arrests.
109. [9:16 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: It's not a discretionary issue. If there are allegations made the police must investigate. Depending on the circumstances they will proceed to go and arrest the person or, as Musara is saying, with rich people they like to get a warrant first.
110. [9:18 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: That test if a very low one, and merely looks at whether the allegations received disclose a crime, not whether the putative accused person is guilty. That's where you are missing the issue
111. [9:24 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I am not missing any point. You are saying the test is low without disclosing the elements of the test. What constitutes a low test? Do courts have jurisdiction to determine how low? Do we have case law on this?
112. [9:24 AM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: Where does investigation comes in?investigation
113. [9:26 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I think you are hunting ne salt mupoketi. Inga wani ndati the test is a low one which "looks at whether the allegations received disclose a crime" under the law. That's the test
114. [9:27 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I guess according to Tino anyone with a gun must fire it.
115. [9:27 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: From the moment an allegation disclosing a crime is received, everything done after is the investigation
116. [9:27 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: So there are no standards for determining and testing abuse. No objective standards.
117. [9:28 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: False. If an allegation was received stating that you looked at so and so's wife with intent to propose a liaison, that would not be one disclosing a crime and no gun would be fired then.
118. [9:29 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: So let us look at the allegations. Is it your considered opinion that they disclose a crime?
119. [9:29 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Which abuse are you now talking about?
120. [9:29 AM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: And is that what u are calling a low test.
121. [9:29 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: So you are agreeing that a test exists? Or should exist?
122. [9:29 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Yes they do. Externalising foreign currency was at the time a statutory offence
123. [9:31 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Your questions are too scattergun and lazy. You asked about an investigation and when it starts. No one has talked about a low standard or proof or test about an investigation, but about an arrest warrant. Try and be clear.
124. [9:31 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What does this mean legally? What is the offence? Where is the law?
125. [9:31 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I have been saying that all along, and that it is a low one, which in this case was met
126. [9:32 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What is and was the law violated as at 17 May 2004?
127. [9:32 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Legally it means sending it keeping foreign currency (which should be declared and brought into the country) abroad.
128. [9:33 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: In terms of which specific legal provision. Let us unpack the violation for the benefit of all.
129. [9:33 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Externalisation of foreign currency. But your question is wrong. The affidavit does not suggest that any law was in fact violated, merely that an allegation had been made to the effect that one had been violated. Those are two very very different things
130. [9:35 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Why arrest in a country of laws if there is no law that provides for that
131. [9:35 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Why is it that you always see wrongs in others?
132. [9:35 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The 1996 Exchange Control Regulations as subsequently amended
133. [9:36 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Which provision of the Regulations?
134. [9:36 AM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: For the police to seek a warrant of arrest I believe there must be an investigation first to ascertain the strength of the allegations. In this case externalisation. And for them to establish the facts they would have to look at the accused person's affairs. So how can this be called a low test.??
135. [9:36 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Because you are making wrong statements. If you stop, l suspect that l will stop seeing them
136. [9:37 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Why? For your information or are you saying the affidavit should have said
137. [9:37 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: There is no disclosure in the affidavit about regulations so the presiding officer and the author would not have known on the day in question
138. [9:37 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Arresting someone against whom the allegations have been made is part of the investigation
139. [9:38 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Indeed. You need to know what you are charging a person for. Murder is not robbery.
140. [9:39 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Probably because the officer at the time did not know which provision had been violated. But the fact was if foreign currency had been externalised as her the allegations received, a crime under the Regulations would likely have been committed. The arrest warrant was an aid to the investigation
141. [9:39 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The charge was clear, the elements not
142. [9:40 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: And as l have been at pains to explain, that affidavit charges no one with anything
143. [9:41 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: How can you charge someone for a crime you dont know? What would have been the urgency?
144. [9:41 AM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Kkkkkk same with me hey!
145. [9:42 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What does the charge relate to? Which provision of the regulation or the Act?
146. [9:42 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: No one was charged of any crime by that affidavit. Please!
147. [9:42 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: There is no charge!!!!
148. [9:43 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Please please please! That affidavit has nothing to do with charges!!!
149. [9:43 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: For you to be am accused and to start the journey, dont you believe that there must be a known and disclosed alleged transgression?
150. [9:43 AM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: It's an application for warrant of arrest
151. [9:44 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What about the facts relating to the alleged violations?
152. [9:45 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that there must be an objective test to establish whether the power to arrest has arisen or had arisen based on a factual and legal matrix?
153. [9:45 AM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Mr Mawere had you been arrested, a docket was going to be opened against you.
154. [9:45 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What are the limitations on the use of the power to arrest and not detain?
155. [9:46 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What is the law on this? Can you point to any case law supporting your contention?
156. [9:46 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The known transgression was externalisation of foreign currency.
157. [9:47 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Why is this relevant to the affidavit?
158. [9:47 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What does this mean legally. If you have nothing to add that is fine. Let us broaden the net. Your view has been heard.
159. [9:49 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I doubt you ever read what people say here, you have your views already made
160. [9:49 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It is relevant because a presiding officer has to apply his mind based on what would be before him. This is the only document that existed on 17 May 2004.
161. [9:50 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Because l have already stated:
162. Legally it means sending it keeping foreign currency (which should be declared and brought into the country) abroad.
163. [9:50 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: So how do you justify asking again, in less than 10 minutes, what it means legally?
164. [9:51 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Guess who is speaking. You have your mind made up already. What is new. You know the offence although it is not disclosed. How did you know that it was the regulations relied upon and not the Exchange Control Act?
165. [9:51 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: No, the officer makes clear that there also existed some allegations. Whether those were in document form or not is immaterial, but there was more than just the affidavit
166. [9:51 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Legally it means that the IO knew and ought to have known how the facts related to the alleged crime.
167. [9:52 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Because the regulations specify in better and greater detail what is in the Exchange Control Act. They work together
168. [9:53 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Which allegations that fall outside his knowledge could have informed the decision to invoke the power to arrest?
169. [9:54 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Do you agree that what you are saying now could not have been in the mind of the IO on 17 May 2004?
170. [9:54 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: No, legally it means the IO had received allegations about externalisation of foreign currency which is proved would constitute a crime under the law and you were a person that could assist the investigation
171. [9:54 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: See above point ☝☝☝☝
172. [9:55 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: How do you know what could have been in the mind of the IO seating where you are?
173. [9:58 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Because the first paragraph clearly says it
174. [9:59 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What does it say in relation to the law? Where in the law is externalization defined? Which law?
175. [9:59 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: And it's not what was in his mind that's relevant, it's what's stated in the affidavit as being in his mind. He could have been thinking of his small house at the time but that's not relevant. The affidavit is all
176. [10:00 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The affidavit was going to someone who would know that externalisation of foreign currency if proved was a crime. It therefore did not need to define it.
177. [10:01 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: You are speaking as if the affidavit was ever meant to satisfy you, not the magistrate.
178. [10:01 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You are agree that the affidavit is presumed to be complete. Tell me which law defines externalization so that both the accused and the accuser have a meeting of the minds?
179. [10:02 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The accused was never meant to be party to the affidavit. So it was never drafted to satisfy the accused
180. [10:03 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: No remember the reasonable test.
181. [10:03 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: What reasonable test?
182. [10:05 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You are the person that it must speak to otherwise why call it public power or its use and abuse.
183. [10:06 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I thought you had read the documents i shared above. How do you think public power must be used? Do you agree that the power to arrest is prescribed?
184. [10:06 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I have said this before and l will say it again now: the fact that you Sir should still be unclear on these points now, more than a decade after the events, says a lot to me about the quality of lawyers you have had.
185. [10:06 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: No! The affidavit applying for a warrant of arrest is rarely ever seen by the accused.
186. [10:07 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: You mean the irrelevant ones from English law? They are not relevant to our situation.
187. [10:07 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What is at issue is the exercise of public power and trust?
188. [10:08 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I guess the law must have geography and eyes.
189. [10:09 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: No. what is an issue is the exercise of statutory powers.
190. [10:10 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Yes. English law must concern itself with England. Zimbabwe law does what it can in Zimbabwe. A person arrested in Zimbabwe cannot ask to be treated as those arrested in England are.
191. [10:13 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: What are these powers?
192. [10:13 AM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Principles of constitutionalism and legality are universal.
193. [10:14 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: The power to arrest by warrant or without a warrant any person against whom there exists prima facie evidence that they have been involved in the commission of a crime
194. [10:15 AM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: That's one view. An equally persuasive view is that they are relative.
195. [10:16 AM, 11/1/2016] +263 77 459 5355: Murder is robbery in the sense that you will be robbing someone the privilege of living and hence it is a human right violation .....
196. [11:57 AM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Does the zim bill of rights subscribe to this view also
197. [12:08 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: In which aspects does the laws differ in zim and england,relative to the case 0:21
198. [12:10 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: To what extent is this relevant to the question whether or not the affidavit in question had legal standing under Zimbabwe law?
199. [12:15 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Very relevant
200. [12:16 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: On what basis is it relevant?
201. [12:18 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I will respond. In a meeting.
202. [12:18 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: If the principles guiding the issuance of the affidavit under zim law are similar to those that apply in england then cross referencing can be necessary
203. [12:25 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: They are not the same. Our CPE Act is not modelled on theirs. That's why l pointed out that the South African case l posted was more relevant
204. [1:23 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: In summary of my opinion on the issue of this affidavit I guess we must have clarity on these terms:
-arrest
-affidavit (its purpose n value)
And then dissect in terms of the Rule of Law and Due Process or in short the Miranda Principles.
@Tino you get where I am leading to?
205. [1:45 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Section 33 and 37 of CPE Act deal with arrest on warrant. A magistrate can't issue a warrant for a crime committed outside his jurisdiction and per 37- a warrant is unlawful and irregular if it's defective in substance or law.
206. [1:54 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Reasonable grounds mean the IO himself must have reasonable suspicion ,it is not enough for him to rely on a report from someone else-unless it gives him enough reasonable grounds to suspect, Bull v Attorney General 1986 (1) ZLR 117 (S). There must be an investigation into the facts before there can be reasonable suspicion (not certainty) that a 9th Schedule crime has been committed, Allan v Min of Home Affairs 1985 (1) ZLR 339 (H)
207. [1:57 PM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: I don't believe the IO was acting on his own knowledge. If so does it constitute a crime?
208. [2:02 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Note that he has leeway to act if the source is compelling and a reasonable man can be led to have suspicion. My contention with affidavit is that the IO intentionally misled the court to obtain a warrant by forcing jurisdiction by means of giving a deliberately "wrong" address. That's the crime lying under oath- perjury
209. [2:39 PM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: Perjury is a serious crime.

Magnified illustration with the word Facts on white background.
Magnified illustration with the word Facts on white background.

210. [2:39 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: But in any case,does it matter in which statute the affidavit is modelled if its contents are malicious and riddled with inconsistencies on facts
211. [2:52 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: First off what is an affidavit,is it some speculative document or by nature a document which by law ought to be modelled on facts regardless of circumstances
212. [3:07 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Its a sworn averment of truth and fact under oath
213. [3:07 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Not a mere statement
214. [3:08 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Its probative and evidential value is higher since a degree of trust is placed upon it as a sworn averment of the truth and fact
215. [3:27 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere:
216. [3:40 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Presidential powers usage,,isnt this a similar case with their usage on smm
217. [3:41 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: I raised this point earlier on but was brushed aside on the basis of the never ending affidavit case
218. [3:47 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Honestly
219. [3:49 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: I can tell you now that there are 0 (ZERO) inconsistencies in that affidavit. The most that can be said about it is that EITHER
A. The affidavit is % accurate OR
B. The affidavit has ONLY ONE but no more, inaccurate statements.
The sooner people accept this clear truth the sooner they can start to understand the issues.
220. [3:50 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: This gov continues to show disdain for the constitution. They had all the time to bring the bond case to parly but they resort to ambush us using the unconstitutional Prez temporal measures powers
221. [3:50 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: The never ending affidavit will end if we all put effort into understanding the broader context of it and the acid test for constitutionalism.
The use of executive power for unconstitutional purposes is a well-established one in post-colonial Zimbabwe.
You will have noted that Tino tried to make reference to exchange control regulations which regulations were given birth to in terms of the temporary powers given to the President to deal with emergency situations.
222. [3:51 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: So then 1
1. How does it implicate non.existent players
2. and why does it appear ignorant on the roles of the roles and functions of the named actors
223. [3:53 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: What is your point Dziva. We have been going on and on abt this issue. Even a dog chasing its own tail is bound to get bored
224. [3:54 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I think we need to use the framework provided by Adv Mavula to test using an objective approach whether any reasonable person would have been induced to suspect that a crime had been committed and if the person accused was the correct person based on legal and not imagined ties with the companies concerned.
225. [3:59 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Now the suspicion would have led to investigation into the transactions and affairs of the companies at issue.
The person of MDM would still be remote at this juncture coz the transactions were carried on by juristic persons
226. [4:02 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: We have been trying to find whether an attack for malicious prosecution or wrongful arrest can be established and it is this question that needs your voice as well. Your silence creates the impression that there are only two voices.
Our problem is that we seem to be in a hurry without a fixed destination let alone passionate actors.
I would be interested to know your views on the questions raised:
Whether the decision to arrest which is an exercise of public power can be made and implemented without satisfying the generally acceptable tests.
We also need to establish whether the allegation of externalization absent the specific provisions allegedly violated could be used in respect of the facts alluded to.
Whether a sworn statement is just an inocous document with no legal validity.
Whether a warrant of arrest could have been obtained without the assistance of the sworn statement.
Whether the facts contained in the sworn statement were correct or false.
227. [4:02 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: The affidavit says investigations were carried out leading to reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed. Is this so?
228. [4:06 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It is clear that in paragraphs 2 to 5 there is no mention at all as to what I was supposed to have done or whether the police was now a dignified debt collector. Why would Turnall seek the assistance of the police to collect from its customers?
Is it not ironic that the alleged misconduct occurred during the specific month of June 2003.
How could one company manage to export the good worth r22 million in one month. Just imagine the logistics nightmare.
229. [4:06 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: You know and knew the facts so yes the contents of the affidavit are unfounded from your perspective. This officer wrong as he might have been had at that time reason to request the warrant of arrest based on investigations carried out. It was up to your lawyers to prove beyond doubt that the allegations were malicious. In retrospect I have to plainly say I think your legal team could have represented you better
230. [4:07 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: "Investigations carried out so far"...the crime required forensic audits and reports for which the subsequent extradition was to be sought and then dismissed for lack of merit
231. [4:08 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: Precisely. This is what the legal team could have argued then
232. [4:08 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You know the court ruled in my favour. The extradition enterprise did not succeed.
I think the idea is to share experiences and knowledge about what the promise and challenges of constitutionalism are.
233. [4:10 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe:
234. [4:10 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Exactly
235. [4:11 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It is resolved.
236. [4:11 PM, 11/1/2016] Tawanda Madamombe: Im struggling to understand how zanu pf actors get away with standard proceedure..if nkt checked by competent courts
237. [4:11 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It is not my perspective but the decision of the court that matters.
238. [4:12 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I think there are some in this group who don't want to learn about the manner in which the system works.
239. [4:14 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: There are some bright minds who refuse to see the conduct of Mabunda as inconsistent with the public service charter.
240. [4:18 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: To argue that public power can be subject to arbitrary use is bad at law.
241. [4:20 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It should be common cause, logical and reasonable to all but regrettably these rare commodities are expensive to secure
242. [4:20 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Its fatal to Rule of Law and a Democratic society that recognises due process
243. [4:23 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: It is this kind of arrogant posturing that stifles debate. So anyone who disagrees with you is not logical and reasonable. Reason and logic do not need to be buttressed. They stand out clearly and matters of law are subject to different interpretation. So why not allow differing views to be expressed freely
244. [4:23 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: But instead of using this opportunity to learn about what good statecraft is, we squander the opportunity by polemics
245. [4:26 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Thanks for still deciding not to share your common sense waiting to demonstrate impatience and refusing to add value to the issues.
Where do you stand on issues?
You believe that the affidavit issue is not important. What does this say to those who think otherwise?
We can't have a monopoly of arrogance.
246. [4:27 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Your views are more than welcome. I have addressed questions to you which I know will be brushed aside because they dont fit your chosen narrative
247. [4:28 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: I expressed my views on the affidavit. Scroll up Dziva. What I dispute is your choice of words where u label any differing view as illogical or unreasonable. Growing up in the village the old man who ends up speaking alone by the fire is not always the wisest
248. [4:29 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: It's called hunting with the salt in your pocket, sometimes
249. [4:29 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: May be i missed them. I would be very much interested in your views on the affidavit. Did you get my questions?
250. [4:29 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinashe Mpasiri: If These so called bright minds refuse to see the conduct of a public office bearer as inconsistent with the constitution, they are contributing to the lawlessness
251. [4:30 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: I have no chosen narrative. My views are clearly expressed. I can add that I think Mabunda was acting on instructions hence his lack of clarity on the matter. We get these kinds of politically motivated persecutions and prosecutions a lot in Zim and IO make fools of themselves in court
252. [4:31 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: It's this kind of thinking that has brought no respite to the real victims of the SMM saga, the people that worked there and earned a living from it
253. [4:31 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: I guess it takes one hunter to know another. I am still to establish what are you hunting for when the animal has been dead for the last 13 years.
254. [4:31 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: Scroll up and save both our batteries
255. [4:32 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinomudaishe Chinyoka: Me? It's you that's still hunting. I have repeatedly asked kuti what's the relevance of discussing these things now when clearly they were mismanaged kudhara
256. [4:33 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Let us assist Gandanga who reached in the morning trying to find a pathway to determine the next step. You make allegations that Mabunda was an agent. However, shouldnt we treat him as a principal who knew or ought to have known of the consequences of his actions.
257. [4:34 PM, 11/1/2016] Ras: Mabunda like Chinamasa were both agents in my opinion.
258. [4:38 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: We have been talking with you and others about the need to introduce a master class so that lessons about building constitutional states can be shared and the consequences can be learned.
How many people knew about Mabunda who now know of his role in giving birth to the disaster that has visited many thousand lives.
The question that needs to be answered before looking at specification and reconstruction is whether if i had been arrested, the chain of events that unfolded would have taken place.
Here you will note that even without invoking the Prevention of Corruption Act, Mabunda was already speaking on behalf of all companies deemed to be under my control
259. [5:20 PM, 11/1/2016] Tinashe Mpasiri: Wrong platform
260. [5:27 PM, 11/1/2016] +263 77 328 4005: Humor is mankind's greatest blessing-
261. Mark Twain
262. [5:36 PM, 11/1/2016] Tapuwa Chitambo: So misrepresentation of facts in an affidavit is an offence
263. [5:37 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: In my world yes
264. [5:59 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Do we have precedence for cases where people were sued over lying on affidavits? Moyo sues Mnangagwa: Full Statementwww.newzimbabwe.com
265. [5:59 PM, 11/1/2016] +27 78 202 5720: http://www.newzimbabwe.com/news-33017-Moyo+sues+Mnangagwa+Full+Statement/news.aspx
266. [6:01 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: is it over affidavit?
267. [6:05 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: Precedence exist for arrests on perjury
268. [6:05 PM, 11/1/2016] +27 78 202 5720: This platform isnt about affidavit but about sharing knowledge especial relating to constitutionalism with SMM saga being amongst the main cases but not limited to it.
269. [6:06 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Yes I know! I'm asking about lying on an affidavit not during trial
270. [6:09 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: This affidavit was part of the court proceedings for an order for a warrant isn't it so. This was put before the court as sworn evidence... So it formed part of the trial record
271. [6:09 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere:
272. [6:12 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: The docket is important at trial
273. [6:12 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: It was the only document that existed on 17 May 2004 when the warrant was issued.
What do you think would have been Mabunda's state of mind on the day?
274. [6:14 PM, 11/1/2016] Adv. Thuto Mavula: The other point to note will be what will be the fate of the warrant proceedings had Mabunda stated the correct address in his affidavit bearing in mind that the court had no jurisdiction apart from founding it on a bogus address
275. [6:17 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: The affidavit is what was presented to the magistrate in support of the application for the warrant of execution.
It had to be a sworn statement because the averments were necessary for a magistrate to determine whether the accused was the right party and whether facts existed linking the facts averred to the accused.
276. [6:18 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Warrant of arrest
277. [6:21 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: Please have you looked at the Exchange Control Act and the Regulations to see the centrality of the address or residency in establishing the case for exchange control violations.
Also note that there is no such offence called externalization.
278. [6:24 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: You are aware that it was after securing the warrant that on Saturday, 22 May 2004 that the other organs were at work to now state the specific provisions of the Act and regulations that were to be relied upon in relation to the SA extradition application
279. [6:27 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: SA extradition isn't that simple. Was perusing the principles of extradition and such a case can't tolerated.
280. [6:32 PM, 11/1/2016] MD Mawere: The case was dead from inception. However, the facts create cases but if bo such facts didn't exist at birth then crossing the border with a flat tire would not change anything.
281. [6:34 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Extradition is for serious cases. It's not for cases of political nature
282. [6:35 PM, 11/1/2016] Mahlangu: Your case sounds political

Comments

Comments by Chamunorwa bhobho (2017-06-13 08:03:57) from Zimbabwe

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